how to fill the mast with foam

ivanhoe

New Member
I purchased my 14.2 earlier this summer and have been enjoying sailing it. I would like to learn more specific details on how to go about getting the mast filled with foam so that it will float if or should I say when, I capsize.
Ivanhoe
 
foam for the mast

I used a small can of insulating foam from from Home Depot. I removed the fitting on the top of the mast for the halyards on my Omega. I filled the mast using the tube that came with the can. I also considered adapting a Hobie mast float.
 
Mast Float

Did you get a hobie mast float? Which one, if you did? And if you installed it, have you tested to see if it helps prevent turtling?
 
hobie mast floats

I looked at the Hobie Bob mast floats at the Sailboat store in Austin. The bracket will have to modified to fit the mast on my Omega. I think the smallest "Bob" made will be sufficient. Cost is about $100.00. BTW They all look like they could be a pain in the XXX.

I have never had my boat capsize so we will have to see what happens.
 
So, does the foam in the mast significantly delay a turtle or not?

I have sailed for about 20 years now, but just had my first turtle. Started sailing on Dolphin Sr., went to a Venture 21, then Pearson Ariel 26, and now a Capri 14.2 (Mod 1). Last weekend I took out the Capri for the first time. Winds gusted, I hiked out and the boat went over anyway. Turtled in about 15 seconds!

I know prevention (keep the main sheet in your hand), and I also now know my weight is not enought to counterbalance a gust (in my Dolphin it was).

I was planning on foaming the mast this weekend, but will it make a significant difference???? Has anyone tested it afterward to see if it has a significant impact?

I guess for $5 it won't hurt, and it might help, but I'm just wondering if I need to be looking for more float.
 
Looks like I beat you by three weeks - when I had my first turtle. I wrote it up and you can find it here.

My mast is plugged at the top with foam. I still went over as fast as you did. Since there is no quick way for the mast to fill up with water, I've surmised that mast buoyancy isn't really a factor. If the winds are stong enough - you will turtle anyway.

I bought a Baby Bob from the local Hobie dealer. It's affixed to the mast but haven't had a chance to break it in yet. I'm expecting fair winds on Sunday.

Jim
 
Foam in the mast

On my 2nd sail I nearly turtled my 1980 boat!!! (This could turn into one of THOSE stories for posterity, but I won't post the whole thing here.) The water wasn't deep enough to go completely bottom up, but the mast did drag in some lovely muck! Suffice it to say that I'm very interested in finding out if the foam in the mast works.

I put foam in my mast today and I'm praying that I don't have to find out again if it works or not. But I do want to know if there's any added security in doing it.

I'm new to the boat, new to the class and am truly enjoying reading the posts.

Silk
~~~~~_)~~~~~
 
mast buoyancy testing - any takers?

Just a suggestion, but I think some of this issue could be solved with a simple experiment.

1. take a mast that hasn't had the foam added inside and throw it in the lake. Does it float? (according to my 1988 mod 1 manual the mast had a foam plug installed in the factory.) if so, about how much buoyancy does it have? To determine that just put some additional weight (aka person) on it.

2. do the same step now with a mast that has the foam. I just added the foam last weekend, so I can do #2, but not #1.

My mast had about 2' of foam inside, but there was water inside the mast anyway. I took a cleat off and was able to easily shoot foam into the bottom through the screw hole. Only wish I had taken the other stuff off so I could have probably filled the whole mast with foam.

Any takers for step #1???
 
Just do the math. An object will float if its weight is less than the weight of water it displaces. Assume that the mast is a 20' long tube 2" in diameter. The volume of this tube is .436 cubic feet. Water weighs about 62 lbs/cubic foot so this tube would give 27 pounds of boyancy force if it was sealed. If the weight of the mast filled with foam, rigging, and wet sails is less than 27 pounds it will float. My gut feel is that the mast and rigging will not float even filled with foam. The best bet is some sort of extra boyancy on the top of the mast ie Baby Bob. Just how much extra boyancy that is needed is unknown.

Roger
 
As Richard has mentioned I just looked at a portion of the whole system. There are many forces involved in causing and keeping the boat from turtling. If there is foam in the mast it will keep the mast from filling with water and helping the boat to go all the way over but it looks like it will not keep the boat form going over. With 32 pounds of boyancy force Baby Bob will keep the Capri from going all the way over. My feeling is that it is way overkill for the Capri. I think 15-20 pounds of boyancy force should keep the boat from going over.
As for the comment for becoming a better sailor and not getting into a position of having the boat turtle, I am a 3 year novice and I still do things that scare me. All that it would take is one dumb move or a line getting cought and the boat is going over. If I had the day from H@%% sailing, have the boat turtle and not be able to get the boat back uprite I would have a tough sell to get my wife and son back out sailing. In my opinion some type of mast float is just good insurance.
 
Congrats drm901, I'm done responding to sailors on this board. Its been a good time until now trying to help other C14.2 sailors and just be part of a good community. So now you can answer the questions on how to sail the boat higher and faster.
Why try to help if some six sigma guy is just going to get angry ? Good luck and good bye.
 
Mast foam vs a float

A quick scan of the Trailer Sailor forums has several threads about mast floats. The consensus is that mast floats are more effective. Here are few more comments from that forum;

"Don't be embarrassed by capsizing! It's a normal part of dinghy sailing and we all do it occasionally. Even the "rock stars". The flotation in the mast and at the head definitely do help!

I wouldn't suggest exposing yourself to nuclear radiation so that you can grow another arm. I can suggest some things that will make single-handing easier though.

First of all, know your limitations. If you're not comfortable out there in a particular set of conditions, not only will it be unsafe, but you'll also have no fun.

Secondly, keep both the main sheet and the jibsheet handy at all times. I keep one draped over each lap so that I always know where they are when I need to grab them. I tend to keep the jib cleated, the main in my forward hand and the tiller extension in the other hand. If a big gust comes and you need to reduce pressure and heel, you can do so either by heading up or easing the main. The jib can be readjusted when you're back in control. To tack, just uncleat the jib, turn the boat and re-trim the jib on the other side. It doesn't have to be a perfect racing tack, but at least the big stick will be pointing skyward!

The trick to ensuring that the boat doesn't sail away from you when you get it right-side-up, is to release all the sheets from their cleats on all the sails so that they will luff when the boat is righted. (There is generally no need to release the halyards, though! To do so, only creates more havoc. Do this only as a last resort!) The boat can't sail away then. It may drift with the waves and wind, though. You also want to turn the boat so that the bow is directly into the wind before righting it. You may have to swim it around to this position.

Finally, the easiest and best way to climb into the boat once it's right-side-up, is to climb over the transom. Others have suggested simple rope loops that can be fixed on one of the transom eyes to help you step in. "

A thousand years ago I learned to sail in an International 14/1 that was a lot faster and lot less stable than my Omega. Some days, I spent more time in the water than I did sailing. I also seem to remember the water being warmer and the boat was easier to get right side up.
 
Throw the mast in the lake

drm901 said:
1. take a mast that hasn't had the foam added inside and throw it in the lake. Does it float? (according to my 1988 mod 1 manual the mast had a foam plug installed in the factory.) if so, about how much buoyancy does it have? ... Any takers for step #1???

I believe I was a taker to step 1!!!! Not on purpose though! I capsized my boat on my 2nd voyage. Nearly turtled her. Does that count for "take a mast and throw it in the lake?"

Since then I've put some of the foam stuff into the top of the mast, but I have NO idea how much got into it. Should have put some into another part but wasn't thinking.

Maybe I should take the mast off and throw it into the lake!

Marti
 
Don't throw it in too deep unless you don't want it back! lol When I learned to sail back in the day, the instructors had the sailors capsize to practice righting their boats. A few turtled but with practice even those became fewer. All small none keel sailboats will turtle if given the chance but the key is to recove from a capsize quickly. It's all part of the deal and it really isn't a big problem but out here in So CA. The skies are blue and the water is warm.Even with that please wear a pfd when sailing! Safe sailing is good fun.
 
Don't throw it in too deep unless you don't want it back! lol When I learned to sail back in the day, the instructors had the sailors capsize to practice righting their boats. A few turtled but with practice even those became fewer. All small none keel sailboats will turtle if given the chance but the key is to recove from a capsize quickly. It's all part of the deal and it really isn't a big problem but out here in So CA the skies are blue and the water is warm but please wear a pfd when sailing!
 
Another Option- Top of Main Float

Having just turtled my first time over which is after having my boat several years, I inquired to Catalina. The sell a "Foam Head" part # 15629 for $180.00 plus shipping. There are other options like a small Bob or possible makeshift float (ie. clorox bottle, etc.). Just wanted you to know about this option as opposed to foaming the mast.
 
Messy mast...

After reading this thread, I foamed my mast at the forestay (drilled a small hole under plate). All went well, except for a small amount of that sticky stuff bubbled out onto the mast, fiberglass boat seat and my fingers (gloves made the job too difficult). I used acetone (nail polish remover) to get the mess off my hands and most of the seat, but let the foam set on the mast. My questions... can anyone suggest (1) the best way to scrape the firm foam off the mast and (2) remove the stain on the seat?
 
I found a little paint thinner cleaned the excess foam right up. I took one of the screws out that held on the shroud and sprayed the foam in at the point as well as at the top.

I did this job over two weeks ago, after getting it cleaned up and waxed, I took it out to our local sailing club in the day sail area, which means I don't have to step the mast ever time I want to sail it. Took it out Sunday, went back out Monday night and found that some of the foam had ran all the way down the mast and out the step.

I got it cleaned up, but thought it was funny that over two weeks it had still not set up.

Kent
 
Sounds pretty strange that the foam did not expand and set. So I guess the big question is does the boat still want to turtle? I've yet to see a positive response on this question or negative one for that matter. Also, any idea how much weight you added to your mast?

Bob
 
Thanks Kent for the paint thinner suggestion...I'll give it a try, but I think the stained seat will require something more aggressive.

Fyi Bob...I too, as did Kent, found after running a long wire up the aft end of the mast, that some foam product still remains (one week later) sticky :eek: . As directed, I shook the 2 cans vigorously, so my only guess is that it requires open air exposure (not sure that makes any :confused: sense) to set firm. I will plug the bottom before stepping with hopes of avoiding Kent's problem. As far as I can tell there has been no significant weight change. I too would like to know if anyone has experienced positive mast foaming results.
 
Open Air

No experience with foaming masts, but plenty with foam in general. Most foams require water (from moisture in the air) to cure properly. So, sealed in the mast, it is quite possible that there is uncured foam in the middle. With closed cell foams, there is no way for the air to get to the core of the foam once it forms a skin. Maybe foaming in small sections would help?
 
Cheap Bob

Another method I've seen is to take one of those foam swimming noodles used by us kids, and twist it into an elipse, tie it there with alight line thru some holes you drill, or if the noodle has a pre-drilled hole all the way thru, run a line there and tie it together to form the elipse. Then drill a couple of small holes in tip top of mast, put rubber grommets in them, run a line thru and attach the eliptical noodle to that so that it runs parallel to the water with mast up. May not look quite as good as a baby bob, but can be done for less than $5. I mimicked the pink one I saw with a blue noodle, but unfortunately never capsized with it in place---- yet. I don't use it for racing as we have a safety boat nearby to help if in trouble, but it makes me feel good if alone away from help.

re/foam in mast, my guess is its best to just seal the upper end to stop the inflow of water during a capsize, but don't try to seal the whole mast as that would just add a little more weight. Another thing, when you are in the water after capsize, don't put your weight onto the mast, or sail, or rigging, or boat gunnel in the water, as that forces things downward hastening a turtle. And be sure sheets are uncleated before you go around to pull on the centerboard to right the craft. Otherwise, you are lifting hundreds of pounds of water, along with the boat. RK
 
Noodle in the mast?

Is there a way to push/pull a series of the float noodles INSIDE the mast?

I wonder if you could do it and if it would work as well or even closely to a Baby Bob.

Looks like a warm winter day project for me. (as soon as the local stores have the noodles)

I will let everyone know what I find out. If anyone has done it please speak up.

Steve
#352
 
Mast head float

I called Dani at Catalina just last week and ordered my mast head float, part # 15629 for $180.00. That plus a foam plug top and bottom of the mast is my intention for keeping the mast head out of the muck. Of course it'll be a few months before I can report. This is NH, it was -13F yesterday morning. Thats 13 below zero for real, not just wind chill.

Update, received the mast head float today from Catalina. I haven't weighed it, I'll report on that later, but it feels like about 2-3 pounds. Its about three feet tall and quite bulky. Photos attached (I hope). I stuck a partial roll of paper towels in the top end to "simulate" a mast. It is not at all clear to me how this is deployed. Before I resort to calling the factory, can anyone tell me just how this works?

Update 2, the mast head float with the shackle weighs 2 lbs 6 oz, per our postal scale.
 

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Test against turtle

I hope you plugged both ends of mast with foam.

Has anyone that filled mast with foam tested the setup against turtling?

Inquiring minds would like to know..
 
Turtle testing

It'll be May or June before I get to turtle testing the mast mods. If I get really ambitious, I'll test it first with top end plug only, then again with top and bottom plugs, and of course finally with the mast head float attached, if I can figure out how to deploy it...
 
Transom Stirrup

As part of my preparations for capsizing and turtle testing, I'd like to add a transom stirrup for remounting the beast. I've seen a couple of ideas for that, including a plastic stirrup on a rope. Is there anything else out there for a transom stirrup that can be easily deployed while you are in the water?
 
Transom Stirrup

I tied a couple of loops in some webbing. Then ran the webbing through a drain hole, and clipped the webbing inside the boat. I toss the it over the transom and back into the cockpit.

So when I capsize, I can use the webbing straps as a rope ladder to get back into the boat. Only problem, is that if the loops are deep enough to get your foot into, then as you stand, your feet end up under the boat.

I'm considering mounting a folding ladder on the transom for this very reason.... Plus, I would have the ability to swim between races to cool off in the hot weather, without a struggle to reenter the boat.

-Robert
1989 Capri 14.2
1984 Catalina 22
 
It is not at all clear to me how this is deployed. Before I resort to calling the factory, can anyone tell me just how this works?

I have a diagram of this rig in my Capri manual and it shows the sleeve as sliding over the mainsail and attaching to the mainsail halyard shackle along with the sail at the head. Then it looks like it fits around the boltrope as it is fed into the mast slot while raising the sail. From what I can see, it looks like raising the sail will work pretty well but I can't understand why it won't bunch when dropping the sail. It looks like your first day out this season will be pretty interesting. ;)

BTW, it also says in the manual the baby bob has 32 lbs of buoyancy and the sleeve has 17 lbs of buoyancy.

Solarfry said:
Has anyone that filled mast with foam tested the setup against turtling?

My mast evidently came from the factory plugged with foam and when we had our turtling incident, there was no indication the foam did anything. Turtling is more complicated than just buoyancy at the mast head. In our case, the wind was blowing so hard, when the boat was laying on it's side, the wind actually pushed against the exposed bottom of the hull; turtling literally occurred in a few seconds.

VCMaine said:
As part of my preparations for capsizing and turtle testing, I'd like to add a transom stirrup for remounting the beast. (snip) Is there anything else out there for a transom stirrup that can be easily deployed while you are in the water?

I bought an actual stainless steel saddle stirrup off Ebay for $5. It's weight and size make it pretty easy to get your foot into. It's fastened to a length of 2" webbing which is hand sewn onto the stirrup's eye with some 50lb test. Then the webbing is anchored to the rear hiking strap bracket in the same manner as the hiking strap.

In use, the hard part is reaching the dang thing if it's bouncing around in the bottom of the cockpit while you're treading water off the stern. I haven't solved the problem yet but ideally it should be gathered and hung on the transom somewhere.

Hope this helps,
Jim
 
Turtling.

I found from my turtling experience.

Todays boats are too wide to remain on the side without any weight on centerboard. Once on the side the weight of boat and wind pressure pushes the mast under. Once mast is under it fills with water making it a lot. I mean a lot heavier. Once mast fills with water it is next to impossible to right the boat.

Once boat is updise down centerboard goes back into slot making it pretty difficult to retrieve unless there is a string from bottom of centerboard you can use to haul it out and up. You need to be quick and be over side and onto board before boat begins the death roll (goes belly up).

Without some kind of righting system like Hobie-cat-righting-straps it is next to impossible to right boat once it turtles. Mast fills with water and acts as a keel adding that column of water in mast to weight you have to right.

You do not need to fill the whole mast with foam. If you fill the top 1' and bottom 1' about 4" from outside edge it will prevent mast from filling with water.

Some boats have mast opennings sealed and some do not. ??? I have not idea why.

A turtling is a pretty frightening experience the first time it happens. If it happens to you alone in the boat you may need rescuing. I found that once my boat was upside down and mast filled with water I could not rescue it by myself no matter what I tried. I pulled the board out of slot, loosened all sheets and pulled main halyard onto boat side, added a lenght of line to halyard, leaned my 170# outboard pulling on bottom of board, ran line from mast to board and leaned on outboard edge of boat. All to no avail. That is why I made a weighted centerboard. Once that weighted centerboard was on all turtling problems became a thing of the past.

It takes two to right the boat. If you sail alone and she goes over you will need to be rescued. Carry a floating VHF with you at all times if you sail alone in windy conditions without reefing as I do.

Good luck!
 
I just had a thought. If there was a line tied to the top of the mast could you use that line to right a boat that was trutled? The biggest problem that a person has when the boat has turtled is pulling the mast and the sails up thru the water. Even if the center board is sticking thru the hull it is not long enough to counteract the force of the mast. But, if you tied a line to the top of the mast and then had it follow one of the shrouds down and tied it off at the base of the shroud you could untie the line and then use it to pull the mast up. I would think that the force needed to pull up the mast up would be lower than the boyancy force that is created by the life jacket. Provided that the mast is not stuck in the mud. Now with the mast level with the water the center board could be pushed out and then the boat brought back up.
Does anyone see a problem with this logic? A 1/4" diameter line would be more than large enough to do the job.

Just my 2 cents

Roger
 
Kill that turtle

I just had a thought. If there was a line tied to the top of the mast could you use that line to right a boat that was trutled? The biggest problem that a person has when the boat has turtled is pulling the mast and the sails up thru the water. Even if the center board is sticking thru the hull it is not long enough to counteract the force of the mast. But, if you tied a line to the top of the mast and then had it follow one of the shrouds down and tied it off at the base of the shroud you could untie the line and then use it to pull the mast up. I would think that the force needed to pull up the mast up would be lower than the boyancy force that is created by the life jacket. Provided that the mast is not stuck in the mud. Now with the mast level with the water the center board could be pushed out and then the boat brought back up.
Does anyone see a problem with this logic? A 1/4" diameter line would be more than large enough to do the job.

Just my 2 cents

Roger

I would say if you dive under boat (an extremely dangerous thing with all those lines waiting to snag you) you could swim out with a second life preserver and slowly pull the tip of mast up and float it on top of life preserver. Then you could swim back to board, pull it down and lift mast out and clear of water. This is how TWO sailors are supposed to rescue a sailboat that flips over. It is the way righting is taught at sailing schools. If you are alone you definitely do not want to dive under turtled sailboat to pull a line out. Tying
a line from tip of mast to side of boat might help you if you are alone.

It seems a lot simpler to avoid turtling altogether but it is next to impossible, as weather will not cooperate. A hobie ball buoy on top of mast is help; the C14 top o sail sleeved foam is also help.

A weighted centerboard is definitely a must if you sail alone, like to go fast and love that centerboard hum. Especially if you sail in the land of the motorboat. Sitting around for 2 hrs on top of a turtled sailboat is no fun, neither is being rescued.
 
So the front edge fabric of the mast head float goes into the mast slot along with the bolt rope? I would not have guessed. I'll post when I try it. Thanks also for the stainless stirrup and web strap idea. I'm still pondering this one...
 
weighted centerboard (how to)

"That is why I made a weighted centerboard. Once that weighted centerboard was on all turtling problems became a thing of the past." (nice!)

Solarfry,

Thank you a great deal for your post and for sharing your experience in the forum. I am very new to sailing, and even more to the C14, and since I am getting ready for a series of "solo" summer sailing (my family is a little afraid of the sailing..) I was wondering if you would be so kind to share more details, and even some pictures (if you have any) about how you made the weighted centerboard. With such addition to my boat, I may be able to convince my family in join me for few deserved summer fun.

Thanks in advance for your time.
 
It was a few years ago. I have no pictures.

It is not that difficult as you use existing centerboard as a guide. A little imagination helps. The piece of steel has to be clean and was about 8" wide by close to 4' long. The centerboard hangs with a pinhole through the steel and is totally enclosed in epoxy. I imagine you could use laminating resin.

Sorry. Have no more info.

A pic of finished product at this time would not help as it looks like a centerboard painted white.
 

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