Introducing the New Official Class Sail

Discussion in 'Laser Class Politics' started by gouvernail, Jan 1, 2011.

  1. jeffers

    jeffers Active Member

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    They are trying to by saying 'we will sell the new sail anyway with or without your approval'.

    There will be some who will buy it but I do know if they turn up at my local club they will be told politely that they are not allowed to race as part of the Laser fleet with it (they can of course join the PY fleet).
     
  2. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    The new bi-radial was on display at the Dinghy Show in London this weekend. Looked like in the pictures, though I hadn't noticed that the battens are oriented more horizontally (not at right angles to the leech). The battens themselves are also different than the current ones.

    What Phil Peron from LP told me was that the builders (yes, in plural) have approved the sail and it's the ISAF that is holding it back, waiting until the next Olympics are over.
     
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  3. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    I am a lightweight sailor and I have one of these training sails. Compared to the MK1 it is awesome. Not faster, it just handles better and is a pleasure to use. The sooner this is approved the better and I would encourage ILCA to phase the release, let club sailors use it now with release to full international competition after the 2016 Olympics.
     
  4. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Good idea but it won't happen.
    :(

    ISAF has ruled on the issue and that will be the end of the story for more than a year, I am afraid.
     
  5. Tillerman

    Tillerman Member

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    Why do you say that Wavedancer? Surely clubs and fleets can choose to allow the new sail in local racing… just as they have been allowing Intensity and APS and Rooster sails etc. etc. for the last few years. Wouldn't it actually be a good thing to use the sail in local racing, get experience with it, give feedback to the sailmakers on any issues, before the bureaucrats at ISAF get round to making it official?
     
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  6. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    Well said Tillerman. The Laser still has many advantages over other boats especially if we can introduce some of the upgrades. In the UK some sailors are fed up of waiting and over 300 grass roots sailors who might have bought Lasers have chosen Aero's and D-Zeros instead.If ISAF are delaying matters it would seem there might be advantages in not being affiliated to them.
     
  7. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Another example as to why being an Olympic class is not good for the class, not good for the massive user base and only suits an elite few at the top for a single competition held only every 4th year.

    This is madness.
     
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  8. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    No. This is not madness. This is actually how things should be. No joking.

    Assuming that LP is telling the truth (and I have no information to suspect otherwise), it means that 1) LP and PSA are finally agreeing and cooperating on something important, and 2) we have a date - give or take a few months - for the launch of the new sail. This is absolutely great! The alternative would be continuing uncertainty. It has been madness up to now, and at last there is a sign that it will be over.

    I disagree strongly with anyone who suggests that we should have different equipment on different levels of racing. That's actually a most anti-Laser notion. The strength of the class is exactly that the equipment is the same for novices and champions alike, that is the very root of its global popularity. That is why a huge majority of the world's sailing countries want it to stay Olympic. And if that in turn results in things being done in four-year cycles, fine. Not a big problem. Certainly not "madness".

    I can wait another year and a half.
     
  9. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    When I say "this is madness", what I mean is that we have been waiting for ages and ages. It seems everything is ready (and probably has been for some time from reports here, people who have tried it, etc.). Yet we are forced by ISAF to wait for a couple more years just to they can have a few elite sailors have a few races. Meanwhile the vast number of people sailing most weekends have to continue being ripped-off for sails that don't last and are somewhat out-of-date and inadequate. Think of those vast numbers of Laser sailors who will continue to wear out sails on a regular basis and even more people will switch to illegal 3rd party sails. So the majority who sail regularly have to wait even longer just because of the few and their one race series every 4 years !! That is madness. and not in the interests of Laser Sailors nor in the interests of the Laser Class.
     
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  10. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Madness has been the lawsuit and (more precisely) everything that led to it, which put the builders on opposing sides. If I've understood it right, it was first LP and later PSA that wouldn't approve the bi-radial, which has been ready for production for something like four years now.

    The reason for the extra delay is (as told by the LP representative I talked with) that ISAF isn't convinced that everyone who wants the new sail will get one in time. The builders disagree, and are pushing ILCA to push ISAF for an earlier legalization date. (I would think something like May 2016 would be a good enough compromise.)

    Of course, the sooner the better. But as I already said, I can wait.
     
  11. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    Fine, you can, I can't so despite my exceptionally strong objections to 3rd party gear, looks like this delay will be pushing me down that route ... to join the group of people no longer sailing Lasers.

    And all because the ISAF want to protect a few elite sailors for one competition every 4 year who it seems cannot adapt to change (like the rest of us). Class should reject itself from being an Olympic class so we can get on without the elite few dictating and hindering us.
     
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  12. Jethro

    Jethro New Member

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    I was told by an ILCA representative yesterday that it is still PSA who will not sign the release on the new sail and top section.
    Their take on it is that PSA is not going to assist someone they are taking to court, by releasing a new product that LPE could sell.
    Believe who you will, but if so it is not ISAF and the Olympics at fault in this case.
     
  13. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    I got a training carbon upper a few months ago. Its made by CSpar in New Zealand its designed exactly in the same way as the Laser carbon upper. Same bend...no break. I got it from Sydney for $400, whereas the typical class legal one is $270. The Sydney guys all use the carbons for training and club races. They save the Laser ones for State, National, and International regattas. We mostly use the iSails down here like the Intensity training sails. Most everyone at the club level has a firm understanding of right and wrong and modify the local rules accordingly.

    There is always another way to skin a feral critter...

    Has anyone seen the white whale(not Dennis Connor)?
     
  14. AlanD

    AlanD Former ISAF Laser Measurer

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    Garbage
     
  15. CaptainAhab

    CaptainAhab Active Member

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    AlanD, I respect you as a long time member of the Laser Universe.

    I'm a bit disappointed with such a short reply from such a knowledgeable sailor. I'm from South Australia. I haven't sailed in Sydney. I was told by several people who are in Sydney including the person from who I bought the Cspar carbon upper, that many of the Sydney based Laser sailors are using the Cspar upper. Based upon their comments a decent number of sailors are using them.

    Based upon my own experience with the carbon upper, it would verge on being stupid to buy an aluminium one in AU simply to bend it while going for a sail, not even racing. I stand by this opinion, regardless if no one is using them in Sydney.

    As you are aware a Laser tested carbon mast, which is effectively the same as the Cspar has existed since 2009, if memory serves me right. So why not use one now while the Laser bureaucracy continue to play with themselves?

    I admit that I quickly wrote that ALL of them use the spars. I realize that is obviously incorrect. Fast typing will often get one in trouble.
     
  16. Andy B

    Andy B Member

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    Whilst the delay to the sail because of the legal dispute is frustrating I feel I don’t know enough to apportion blame and can only rely on press releases such as this http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/02/01/laserperformance-wins-laser-trademark-case/. In my personal dealings with PSE I have found them very helpful, competitively priced and the products to be of a much higher quality than some others.

    Making grass roots sailors wait 18 months so 50 sailors can have a regatta is wrong, introduce special rules for this small minority not force a vast user base to buy an inferior product which does not last as long.

    Once the new sail is approved MK1 and MK2 sails will be on the race track together so the argument that everyone should have the same equipment simply does not hold water. The strength of the class is not that everyone has the same equipment. It’s that all new equipment is carefully designed to make sure it does not give a performance advantage and all the boats remain well matched and competitive.

    LaLi may be able to wait but some of us are at the time of life when every season counts.
     
  17. Deimos

    Deimos Member

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    $$$$ as well. It isn't cheap buying an expensive sail that lasts no time at all. even though new one might be comparable retail price, at least it will (hopefully) last a bit longer.

    Ian
     
  18. torrid

    torrid Just sailing

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    Yes, and sooner or later people will start voting with their feet. It some cases it may be another class like the RS Aero, but more likely it will be some activity other than sailing.
     
  19. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    That's how I understood the situation to be earlier, and it still sounds plausible. Probably no one is telling the whole truth, or maybe isn't even allowed to.

    It's also plausible that ISAF would hold the new sail back anyway. The Olympics will be sailed with supplied equipment, so it doesn't matter which sails are used at the games as long as they're similar with one another. The way I see it, it's not the 46 olympians that ISAF would be "protecting", but rather the much larger group of hopefuls that haven't qualified yet. There is still more than a year of qualifying regattas to go, and I understand how you want to keep the playing field as level as possible at this time if ever. (Not that anyone would get more than a psychological edge, but that counts, too.)

    I admit that I am at a stage (and mindset) in my life when a year or two one way or another doesn't feel like a big deal. So if there's one word of advice I can give from this point of view, it's "relax".
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  20. UK Laser Sailor

    UK Laser Sailor Member

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    it worth checking LP's facebook page and the LP website. More details given about MK2 sail plus some customer reviews on UK pages
     

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