Class Politics Mast Retainer Line

wow thanks for that. ive recently taken mine off and im off to an open next weekend! best put it back on as there's always one walking rule book lol
 
It is surpising the number of people who do not have them. Technically you can be protested for not complying with class rules.

At a recent training day at the club over half of those in attendance did not realise they had to have one (insurance as well as class rules in the UK).

I have seen a rig almost fall out on a capsize where the sailor did not have a retaining line, he does now religiously!

I use the stanard length of rope that loops round the mast above the gooseneck, quick and simple.

Others prefer some fancy clip arrangement over the kicker tang (I have seen these rip off before so would no trust that arrangement.
 
Mine is a shock cord with the top end knotted at the gooseneck and the bottom at hoked to the deck loops where the cunningham pulley attaches.

I use a six or seven MM shock cord and I have to pull it rather hard to get the hook on to the deck loop.

The shock cord has sufficient stretch such that the mast can spin freely without breaking anything.

The shock cord is tight enough such that if my boat is flipped upside down, the mast will stay firmly planted in the bottom of the mast step socket.

I replace the shock cord about once a year
 
Maybe I'm stupid, I read the rule, it makes no sense. The cunningham line goes from the fairlead to the sail and should hold the mast on the boat. In the event that you uncleat your cunningham there is a slim chance you could drop your mast but a stop knot on the end of the cunningham line should prevent it from dropping into the briney deep.... I guess restepping your mast out on the water would be no fun, but since I leave the cunningham cleated usually tightly how could I lose a mast unless I rip the line out on my way overboard.:confused: Why add an extra line, just one more thing to tangle.
 
This is a quote from another thread that was enough to convince me...

Not just the falling out issue, but the falling "half way" out is what worries me most. I'm not sure the mast tube in the deck is designed to support the weight of a mast filled with water and pressing in on the inner walls of the deck tube at the half way point when righting a boat. I'll bet that could destroy a mast step pretty quickly. The retainer line works to keep it mast mostly all the way into the step when capsized. It's a pain to tie, but I won't sail without mine.
 
Unless you have really strong shock cord which might interfere with rotation, a shock cord line might still let you drop part or half way out. For Casual sailing I'll just keep my cunningham cleated and maybe I'll get some heavy monofilamint for a mast retainer if I ever race again. Don't need any more lines on the deck... ;)
 
With the old control lines the cunningham usually (though not always) held the mast in during a capsize. However, the new system with all the extra purchase has plenty of slack to allow for a mast to fall out. Most often when you turtle its capsizing on the run (or is for me) and your cunningham is going to be slack then anyway.

I've seen several masts fall out when sailing and it is not easy to put back on the water. In fact I've only seen it done once by a coach in a rib next to the laser.

I will always tie my mast retainer and make a point of whenever running laser training to make sure those attending know it is a requirement, not an option.

There is another benefit to it, you can add a loop to the rope near the base of the mast to feed your daggerboard elastic through to keep it away from the kicker (rules state not allowed an extra piece of rope to do this job, but you can use your mast retainer)
 
I guess looking at my old rig on 100541 is why I was confused. Can't see how a line from the gooseneck to the fairlead will do anything the cunningham won't.
 
Tying the mast retaining line is really no problem and it's out of the way of the control lines. Previous posts in this thread point to the fact that the safety issue is just too important.
 
I guess looking at my old rig on 100541 is why I was confused. Can't see how a line from the gooseneck to the fairlead will do anything the cunningham won't.


That is because you are not paying attention.

Read carefully. You could avoid ruining your boat.

The most likely time for dumping and turtling and having your mast upside down is on a run.

When you are sailing on a run, if you like sailing fast, you will have your cunningham line fully eased.

When the cunningham line is eased...it is not tight.

When the line is not tight...It has slack. Slack is when a line is longer than the length between the two places it is secured..

If your cunningham is secured to the sail and the deck and there is slack, the sail can move away from the deck before the line becomes tight.

The sail is sleeved over the mast and if the sail can move away from the deck, the mast can also move away from the deck.

If the mast can move away from the deck, the bottom of the mast can move away from the seat at the end of the mast socket.

When your boat flips upside down and wiggles in the waves, the mast, which is heavier than the water, slowly slides down deeper into the water.

If your boat is rapidly sinking, this sinking of the mast is of little concern.

HOWEVER< if your boat remains on the top of the water and the mast sinks down deeper into the water, the mast base will no longer be against the closed end of the mast tube.

Either the mast will fall all the way free from the tube or the mast tip will move part way from the closed end of the tube toward the deck.



Since many people like to tip their boats back to upright afer a capsize I will assume you have a stopper knot in your cunningham line and address the two possibilities and describe for you some things that could happen

1. The mast has fallen all the way clear of the step socket.
If this had happened, it will be very easy to right the boat. The mast will float around in the water and maybe even come up on top of the deck. If you are lucky, the vang will still be attached and you will be challenged only with simple task of inserting the mast base back into the step. You can then stand up on your laser deck, lift the mast to vertical and insert the mast back into the socket. In a calm harbor with very light wind, this is a rasonably difficult task but a person can usually acomplish it.
If your original capsize took place in a calm harbor, you are in luck. You can simply re rig the boat and continue.
if you are near a dock, you can swim the boat over to the dock and stand next to the boat and it will be even easier.
If you are out on a bay and the wind is blowing over about 10 mph....I hope you have a friend with a video camera. The rerigging should create an opportunity for some hobbyist to make fun watchable video for all of us.

There may even bed some scenes like:

Looky looky..the mast just punched a hole in the hull.

Ha ha ha, he fell off the boat for the tenth time

or my favorite..

Well he got the mast in four inches before he tipped it over and ripped a huge chunk out of the deck.


2. The mast only came part way out of the mast socket.

a. You might be looking as you stand on the board and try to right the boat and notice the fact the mast is only half way into the socket.
If you are really smart ( which you aren't as proven by the fact if you have read this and still don't use a retainer) you might bea ble to jump off the board, swim around the boat and use the cunningham to pull the mast back into its proper position.

Or the waves may twist the hull and sail and the resulting forces may punch a hole in the walls of the mast socket.

b. While the boat is still upside down, a big wave might come along, torque the mast sideways and rip your mast step right out of the deck. At last you won't have to worry about doing any more hiking that day and since nobody can decently martch non skid, your boat will have permanent scars to show all your friends what a doofus you were to sail without a retaining line...There I go assuming you have friends but that is another subject.

c. You jump on the board, right the boat and watch your mast rip the deck apart such that you have a righted boat and a mast lying on the surface of the water with its butt stuck under your ripped deck.
If you are fairly bright ( for a guy who ignored all the advice froim everybody who tried to tell you) little bells will go off in your head about how important it was to keep that from happening.


Repeating for those who like lines for the retainer system:

I like to use a nice thick shock cord. One end is tird to the gooseneck and the other has a Witchard brand hook which I connect to the stainless seck loop for my cunningham pulley port side. I probbaly have 10 kilos of static force on that shock cord and I check the condition of that shock cord EVERY time I rig. The cord lasts a couple years.
I like the shock cord system because it can stretch for any position as the mast rotates. It takes only seconds to rig. It holds the mast tightly against the base of the step. It will only allow the mast to lift an inch or two with full violent upward force applied.
and actually yanks the mast back into the socket when the pulling force is removed.

Any tie down system with enough slack to allow mast rotation will not reseat the mast after the mast slides part way out of the socket.


OK I have spoken my piece. If you sail without a retainer system, I have no reason for guilt. I can amuse myself at your expense.

And if you bring the broken boat to my shop. I can present a repair bill equal to the funds that could have bought a couple new sails for your boat with no further explanation.
 
I like to use a nice thick shock cord. One end is tird to the gooseneck and the other has a Witchard brand hook which I connect to the stainless seck loop for my cunningham pulley port side. I probbaly have 10 kilos of static force on that shock cord.

Great post! :D

Serious question: can the mast rotate 180 degrees (boom pointed over the bow) with your setup? It seems like it should. I occasionally find myself needing to do that with a strong on-shore breeze.

I currently use the standard "loop of line around the mast and over the vang-tang", and I've never liked the force it can generate on the block-plate if things get hung up. It's also a pain to tie every time.

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
Great post! :D


I currently use the standard "loop of line around the mast and over the vang-tang", and I've never liked the force it can generate on the block-plate if things get hung up. It's also a pain to tie every time.

You should be able to tie the loop long enough to go over the tang and back, and leave tied to the deck, and it will not restrict mast rotation. Remove the vang, the line falls to the deck, the rig gets pulled. Just make sure that the retaining line is in a loop when the rig goes in, put it over the tang, and attach the vang.
 
You should be able to tie the loop long enough to go over the tang and back, and leave tied to the deck...
I always worry about leaving too much slack in it and allowing the mast to rise up enough to get out of the base of the mast-well and onto the relatively unsupported middle part of the tube. Next time I rig, I'll check to see if I can tie it loosely enough to be able to pull over the tang, but still tight enough for my peace of mind. In any case, I think I'll try the shock-cord technique. It seems much simpler (and better) than the alternatives.

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
spin the mast 180? I guess the trick would be to set the cord so it can do that. Tying on the gooseneck makes the shock cord longer and makes the change in length a smaller percentage of the total available stretch...

It certainly is difficult to type with a wiggling "assistant typist" cat in your lap...
 
I frequently switch rigs and don't want to buy two Wichard hooks for two set ups if I can avoid it.

Would it work to tie the shock cord to one of the metal loops on the cunningham/outhaul deck plates, bring it over where the vang connects to the mast, and connect to the metal loop on the other side? Would there be too much force on the vang/mast connection?
 
That is because you are not paying attention.

Read carefully. You could avoid

sounding like a pompous hull. AS I said those of us just out to have fun don't release the cunningham when running, walking or even sitting still in a calm harbor, particularly on older boats which have less "slack" between the cunningham and the sail. Besides the only place on my deck to connect the mast retainer line would be to the cunningham fairlead and although I replaced my old plastic one with the new SS sleeved one that is stilll a small hole for a lot of lines to share. Too many lines through there and the cunningham won't ease anyway... Also with alll of this violent weather, you flip over in, you are likely to rip your mast step out anyway, Those small #10 screws in the deck can only hold so much stress. Personally I also try to keep my mast above the water at all times.:)

But reading all of this chatter on the silly mast retainer line I have a serious question. What are the two holes on the gooseneck fitting for? Even the old boats have them so they aren't for all those extra blocks and shackles.... Could those be for the mast retainer line? If I wer to actually use a mast retainer line I would want to tie it onto the gooseneck not the vang tang anyway. It is a more substantial fitting.
 
For my mast retainer I have a random piece of string that I found. I have it permanently tied to the cunningham/outhaul fitting on the deck at the base of the mast. I then feed it through the hole in my goose neck and tie a few half hitches. Does the job, takes 2 seconds to tie and gets in the way of nothing.

It doesn't matter if you are sailing for fun or racing at the top level, you NEED a mast retaining line.
 
Would it work to tie the shock cord to one of the metal loops on the cunningham/outhaul deck plates, bring it over where the vang connects to the mast, and connect to the metal loop on the other side? Would there be too much force on the vang/mast connection?


I have it that way.
You just need to find a spot on the goose-neck to hook it. My line starts on the port side mount for the block, passes around the front of the mast and hooks on the starboard side of the gooseneck. My outhaul is on the other side.
 
I have it that way.
You just need to find a spot on the goose-neck to hook it. My line starts on the port side mount for the block, passes around the front of the mast and hooks on the starboard side of the gooseneck. My outhaul is on the other side.

When did Merrily mention the gooseneck?

You obviously don't have it that way.

For what it's worth, when I first started in lasers, i thought the mast retaining line was stupid and only used it in association regattas. Then i saw the problems a guy at my club had when his came out in 30 knots, no hull damage, but a ruined day.

I now use it even when I'm going for a casual sail
 
I'm sorry I left the first line of the post out of my quote. She was talking about a leaving the bungee dead ended at the deck to avoid needing 2 hooks. I mis-interpreted what she was proposing.

I had it rigged the way she describes also, but I did not care for it because:
1. I found it hard to get the hook landed on the other pad-eye without affecting how the block laid. I think my hooks may have been too big.
2. When pulled tight enough per gouvernail recommendation, it *appeared* to be putting a lot of side force on the padeyes. Probably a non issue.
 
I'm Looking for some pink shock cord. If I find some Merrily will be recieving two hooks and two lengths of cord....

I may even paint the hooks with pink Awlgrip.
 
Following all of this discussion, I was out the other day with my 12 year old for the express purpose of teaching him how to right a capsized laser. So, as I rigged my 1981 vintage 100541 I said let's see how I would rig this mast retainer line, since all of these dire warnings that my mast would wreck my deck and leave me stranded in the middle of the lake. (only about 75 acres so not really too stranded). I took an odd bit of old traveler line and tied a couple of bowlines around the only place on deck (on my Boat) the cunningham fairlead, and the other end went around the gooseneck fitting (which has 6 rivets instead of the 4 on the vang fitting). I put enough tension on the line to assure me that the mast could not lift more than an inch or two, but could roate freely. The wind was fresh and gusty maybe 10 to 15 so I could get the boat over but sometimes had to stay on the leeward side to do it. While my mast didn't fall out even though the boat almost turtled when my son was a bit slow getting up to the board one time, the cunningham never once came loose either despite flipping the boat more than 8 times. I am more in fear of my centerboard trunk cracking from that kind of abuse than I am from my mast rattling around and crakcing the step. I guess I will conceed that the line gave me some small measure of security but I still feel I am relying on two #10 screws holding into 28 year old glass with a bit of old plywood backing. If this mast retainer line is so essential one would think we would be allowed to put a different anchor point into the deck to hold it. If we had a little anchor point just forward of the mast it would be more out of the way and truly provide security for the mast by giving us two different screws to spread the stress over.
 
The problem about the cunningham is not about it coming loose, many sailors just uncleat it completely going downwind (and really should if they don't already)

If they 'turtle' the boat when the cunningham is uncleated, then the problems can start
 
This is just a suggestion (its not what i use, but it might become what I use!)

attach a length of shockcord to the deck fitting. pass it up to the gooseneck, around the mast in a largish loop and tie it that way. forever more, leave the loop in it, and the deck bit tied on.

To rig, simply place the loop around the hole in the deck, put the mast in, and lift the loop up until its over the gooseneck. job done.
To derig, remove the boom and vang, slide the loop back down again, lift the mast out.

Uber complicated this idea! Think I'll pass!
 

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