New Foils

The Infused Foils website shows the new foils, but I don't think they are available in the UK yet - certainly not on the Laser Performance online store.

www.infusedfoils.com/infusedfoils/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_5&zenid=dfqoc1efg5kc7saq16a7f32ec6

It seems they provided the foils for the Sunfish Worlds that have just finished in Italy, but the daggerboards were too thick and had to be ground down before they could fit in the slots!

www.sunfishforum.com/showthread.php?t=33275

http://picasaweb.google.nl/bankersenpiet/Zwaard#

I wonder if they will supply the foils for the upcoming Laser Worlds in the UK?
 
Is this the announcement of the total abandonment of the Compton produced foils that served our one design class for the most recent 120,000 hulls??

Will we all be forced to retrofit our boats to be competitive or will the new blades be slower and cause us to horde the old ones??

It hAS to be one or the other...

no way they can possibly be EXACTLY the same.
 
Is this the announcement of the total abandonment of the Compton produced foils that served our one design class for the most recent 120,000 hulls??

Will we all be forced to retrofit our boats to be competitive or will the new blades be slower and cause us to horde the old ones??

It hAS to be one or the other...

no way they can possibly be EXACTLY the same.

I wouldn't be too worried about it. From the sound of it, anyone who buys a new boat with the fancy blades will have to buy an old set on eBay just to have some that fit.
 
I notice there are two types: Standard and Elite. However I cannot see anything that say the difference. Anybody know what the different types are (maybe one "training" and one "class legal" ?).

Ian
 
I notice there are two types: Standard and Elite. However I cannot see anything that say the difference. Anybody know what the different types are (maybe one "training" and one "class legal" ?).

Ian

Standard might be the normal foam boards with elite being the infused GRP-foils?
 
Is this the announcement of the total abandonment of the Compton produced foils that served our one design class for the most recent 120,000 hulls??

Will we all be forced to retrofit our boats to be competitive or will the new blades be slower and cause us to horde the old ones??

It hAS to be one or the other...

no way they can possibly be EXACTLY the same.

No they can't be exactly the same, but maybe differ in areas other than performance. Perhaps durability, strength or cost.
 
They will no doubt differ in the quality of the finish and possibly stiffness compared to the old foam boards.

Standard and Elite kinda says it all doesn't it.

I would guess if your serious about your racing the higher quality (higher cost) foils will be the first choice.

The manufacturers are looking to squeeze a little more money out of people when they make a sale.

Even without seeing them I would be quite confident that it will be a must have purchase.
 
Is this the announcement of the total abandonment of the Compton produced foils that served our one design class for the most recent 120,000 hulls??

Will we all be forced to retrofit our boats to be competitive or will the new blades be slower and cause us to horde the old ones??

It hAS to be one or the other...

no way they can possibly be EXACTLY the same.

If Crompton won't make them anymore you don't have a choice.
 
No they can't be exactly the same, but maybe differ in areas other than performance. Perhaps durability, strength or cost.

I could see changing the blades for a practical reason - cost, durability, no builder, etc. It would be analgous to updating the sail design.

However, to keep selling the old blades and new blades side-by-side flies right in the face of one design. Having a different set with a high price tag implies that one set is faster than the other. Of course I guess that's the intent.
 
I thought the builders had a policy of avoiding single source supply for any parts. If that is the case then might the new supplier be a 2nd source (thus, any supply problems with any one part does not stop them supplying boats as they have an alternative).

Ian
 
I thought the builders had a policy of avoiding single source supply for any parts. If that is the case then might the new supplier be a 2nd source (thus, any supply problems with any one part does not stop them supplying boats as they have an alternative).

Ian

Yah but when LP's territory is North America and Europe and they lose their supplier it's kinda hard to get new parts from the other regions.
 
But its also true that the foils Laser has been making the last few years have been really bad, and they chipped frequently and early on.
I have chartered four times in the last 2 years and the centerboard chipped two of those times (and not from abuse or neglect either). And when it wasn't my blades chipping, it was someone else's.
As long as they can guarantee that these new blades will have better longevity and durability, I think I'm all for them.
 
I find it impossible to believe there are no plastics companies in teh world who are not only quite reliable but quite eager to reverse design an exact duplicate of the Compton blades.

Even if no company chose to make an exact duplicate, There are many ways to make injection molded plastic paarts and if chipping and cracking is teh REAL reason for seeking a new design, I would submit that simply requesting a mondification of the ingredients and adding fiber to the foam would be the easiest route.

When it comes to the laser game and keeping our one design toy consistent and afordable, evolution and not revolution is my version of the preferred path.

I would love to know why Compton would "decide not to build more blades."

Any company with a reliable client who has consistently paid its bills for 30 years is unlikely to simply cut off that reliable client with no rational reason.

The lack of freely given information about this sudden need to first have an alternate supplier and now a replacement for that reliable supplier does nothing to supress my belief that there are two ugly sides to the story.
 
Lots of "one design" classes aren't really one design. For example, something like the Opti or 470 classes. You want a hull, you have your choice of 3 or 4 builders. Same with spars, blades and sails.

You have to comparison shop when putting a boat together. Certain equipment may or may not be faster, in certain situations. But there are also differences in price, allowing for some degree of marketplace competition.

We seem to be slowly evolving to the same situaiton in the Laser class. Only all the equipment come from one place.
 
I simply want a good solid as a rock supplier company where we can purchase reasonably priced equipment to play our game.

When Lasers were introduced they cost 1/3 the price of a Volkswagon Beetle.

Currently a Laser on a trailer with covers costs as much as a Kia....

Fewer tires, no engine, no windshield, no brakes., no heater, no radio, ..need I go on??

The goal of producing an easily affordable racing sailboat for the singlehander has been abandoned.
 
I notice that these new foils are manufactured in China (Guangdong Province). Which makes me think that maybe cost is the driving factor here. In a reasonable world, reduced manufacturing costs to the builder would result in cheap retail costs. Cynic that I am I suspect this is about margin widening by the builder to increase profit (again).

Ian
 
This development makes some class rules look really silly. There have been serious discussions here on wether or not on or two layers of adhesive tape in the center board slot are class legal. If I remember correctly, two layers are not, however different blades are?

Could somebody from the Tech Committee explain what's going on, please?
 
Maybe we should all just go back to the timber boards, I'm sure people complained when the Crompton boards came in making the timber boards obsolete. :rolleyes:

As has been said previously, the boards whilst using different materials and manufacturing processes, fall within the tolerances (stiffness, weight, etc) specified in the builders manual. From using the Australian made boards, the boards do not warp as easily, are actually true when pulled initally out of the box and don't need to be sanded flat, refinished , they don't appear to have the wires running through them that rusts if near the surface or have large sections snap off. Overall, the product is better from only a cosmetic view point not a measurable performance one.

If there is an advantage it would disappear by practicing tacking for 2 minutes, There has been no changes in the pecking order in our club based upon who has and doesn't have the boards (a club with multiple current and former Laser World Champions in various divisions). The only thing you need to take care of is knocking the bottom corner edge off the board (never rest the board with the tip going into the bottom of the cockpit.
 
---snip---
I would love to know why Compton would "decide not to build more blades."

Any company with a reliable client who has consistently paid its bills for 30 years is unlikely to simply cut off that reliable client with no rational reason.

The lack of freely given information about this sudden need to first have an alternate supplier and now a replacement for that reliable supplier does nothing to supress my belief that there are two ugly sides to the story.

What if Compton can no longer make the blades for the price LP wants to pay, LP refuses to pay more and/or is running up a large AR and not paying on time....
 
As has been said previously, the boards whilst using different materials and manufacturing processes, fall within the tolerances (stiffness, weight, etc) specified in the builders manual.

Can you please elaborate on what these tolerances are? What is the range?
 
Thanks. I can see the measurements here in the section on the foils, but don't see anything on the tolerances for things like stiffness. Am I looking in the wrong spot?

Those are probably in the construction manual and are not made public.
 
Those are probably in the construction manual and are not made public.

That's what I figured. Since Alan has said that the boards are within a weight and stiffness tolerance range, I'm curious as to what that range actually is.
 
I sail in 'dirty' waters with all sorts of objects floating in it, especially after a good rain. As a result, I have repeatedly broken pieces of my board. Although I have been able to do the repairs, I would be happy to pay a bit more (say 10%) for a stronger blade. Will the blades from Infused Foils in fact be more impact resistant?
 
It's amazing the crap we let spew forth with no rebuttal.

1. How many dollars are we going to save per boat?? How many English jobs are being lost? Would we pay the $5 per boat to keep the jobs with those who have served us well for the past 30 years?? Are we disloyal greedy bastards who will simply go for the $5 lower price for the $7000 boat that is sold by a monopoly supplier??

Weight and stiffness range??

I have the technology in my head such that shop couold produce Laser blades so exactly like the design shape no normal person could improve it without the use of specialized machinerry.

My technology is the same technology that built the 1953 Corvette bodies.

The weight could be easily controlled to within fractions of an ounce and the structure could be a glass resin composite that has no steel rods , is much harder to chip, and would be easily repaired with commonly availble hardware store materials.

I might have difficulty building a crappy enough board to be as flexible as the Compton but with a guaranteed purchase of 10,000 blades per year I could probably get the price down to $20 to $30 apiece at the factory door or maybe $100 in the retail outlets.

and...as I have been out of the manufacturing end of match metal production since 1980.....
My bet is a business that actually does this sort of thing could do it better than I could.


Now...Did anybody ask the guys in Union City, Pennsylvania or Ashtabula, Ohio about producing laser blades or is this just a bunch of crap being rammed down our (they sure hope we are) ignorant throats.??
 
Fred - for what it's worth - you have my vote to start producing! Of course, you have to remember that you have to factor in a way to make the owner of Laser Performance rich :D
 
I am currently producing Daggerboards and rudder blades in the USA of FRP with balsa core for a retail price of $159.99 for the daggerboard and $109.99 for the rudder blade. Our only issue is that we cannot keep up with demand.

Now if the lower trailing edge design could be changed then the chipping issue would no longer be a problem for any of the boards for the Laser.
 
It seems to me the most effecient way to make the blades would be a continuous extrusion of reinforced plastic that is cut , rounded, and then painted.

I don't believe making teh builders a big profit should be a problem with any sensibly produced blade.

my question remains.

Just why are the 120,000 of us who bought one design blades in good faith being abandoned by the builders and dealers from whom they were bought?
 
As one who argues for the "strict one design" for the boat, I actually don't have anything against the new blades (subject to knowing the differences between "standard" and "elite" versions).

People say there is no difference in performance - so I can only assume this is true. Then if they are better in terms of strength/not warping with heat, etc. then good luck to those who get them with their new boats. When my old ones are due for replacement I too will have the new version.

In many ways the change is not dissimilar to the XD kicker/outhaul/Cunningham change. Not cheap for those on a budget but you can purchase the new versions if you really want them. Certainly a different level of change compared to the guy recently proposing the hull be built lighter, etc. which would have made all existing boats uncompetitive with no upgrade.

Maybe one strange aspect is that (to me) there appears to have been no involvement of the membership about this change. I can appreciate that some changes might be required by the builder (e.g. is some materials become banned or unavailable, new regulations, etc. - they have to keep making boats). But it sounds like this change is a choice they have made on their own. I can appreciate that they must be allowed to make commercial decisions but I would have expected that to be to different suppliers providing identical product (same material, same construction, etc.). Maybe I missed the vote on this by the membership.

Ian
 
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I have heard (from those what know) the XTM boards make a pretty big difference on pointing and speed, so, let the arguments begin!
 
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I have heard (from those what know) the XTM boards make a pretty big difference on pointing and speed, so, let the arguments begin!

The thing is "heard from where". Because some guy who once saw a Laser down the pub saying this is a very different matter from somebody e.g. in the Olympic squad.

Source of such a comment is important in its credibility.

Ian
 
I just happen to know some sailors who are in the UK squad system, I will see what they think.

Until they start appearing at club level and more results are analysed (ie does sailor X suddenly move several places up the fleet) then there is no way to know.

Cheers,

Paul
 
Sorry, I did realise that came out as a bit of a "my cousin knows a guy who knows someone who went to school with the pope" type web rumour! I don't want to burn any bridges I've built, so I won't specifically name anyone, but yeah, it's someone who knows the boats very well, and has access to the new foils at this early stage in their development.

There wasn't much they could do, the old company went bust, everyone complains about the price of the original Laser equipment anyway, and the numbers still didn't add up. If the new foils are such a game changer, those who buy new sails every year to compete will doubtlessly find the money, those who just race at club level are likely to lump it.

New boats without bits at the height of the season is not surprising, when everyone is busiest, mistakes get made and stocks get short.
 

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