beldar boathead
Married to Primat Boathead
It doesn’t say this is run by LP, but it looks like what they tried to do with Sunfish. And the only approved builder is LP. www.thelaserclass.com
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
It doesn’t say this is run by LP, but it looks like what they tried to do with Sunfish. And the only approved builder is LP. www.thelaserclass.com
On my god..... But it’s senseless!The worst news may be that there will be "Lasers" and "ILCAs" with the same sail number
It's ridiculous. But that's what "The Laser Class" intends to do: to give their own plaques to LP, starting from number 217250.it’s senseless!
Now it gets really scary. My mate just bought one ILCA with s/n 2178XXIt's ridiculous. But that's what "The Laser Class" intends to do: to give their own plaques to LP, starting from number 217250.
_
Now it gets really scary. My mate just bought one ILCA with s/n 2178XX
I can’t imagine seeing 2 boats with same s/n’s
I'm not convinced TLC is independent of the builders and 100% for the sailors, my feel is it's a front for LP similar to the ISCO they setup which World Sailing rejected.
View attachment 36496
It's ridiculous. But that's what "The Laser Class" intends to do: to give their own plaques to LP, starting from number 217250.
Of the people "officially" involved in "The Laser Class", Beat Heinz seems to be the only one in the EurILCA executive board (master coordinator). (The ILCA website lists Macrino Macri as vice chair, but EurIlCA itself doesn't.) Heini himself is still, at least theoretically, a member of the ILCA World Council.this could end up differently to the ISCO Sunfish class that LPE tried to introduce if The Laser Class can get the backing of EurILCA - which it may well do, but they just haven't openly said so - yet.
But I don't see how World Sailing would recognize TLC no matter what EurILCA says. And the latter has very little choice if it wants to stay true to its name. You can't sit on two chairs at once.
In answer to the above ILCA response, I am one of those ILCA sailors and I will try to formulate carefully the concerns of the European Master Sailors:
- We believe in the introduction of new equipment to solve problems, but it should go very slow in order to make sure that older Lasers do not suddenly become obsolete. Sailors will stop sailing the laser when their boat suddenly becomes much slower than new boats. This will have a big impact on the number of competitors of the club races and national championships in the different countries and at the end also for the European and World championships.
- The cost price of the boat and equipment should be a fare price. This price is based on the margin of the builders and de ILCA royalties.
- We are not against new builders (as that could mean lower prices), as long as ILCA is able to make sure they build in accordance with the strict One Design and not making the older boats suddenly obsolete (see point 1).
- The ILCA royalties is something ILCA can decide. The question her is, does ILCA really need to get so much money out of the boat and equipment sales and the ILCA events?
- We are very much in favour of the Olympics, but if this is the reason that the older boats become obsolete, and the amateur laser sailors stop sailing, then we should forget about it. Afterall the Olympic sailors are a very small group and do not necessarily need to compete in a Laser in order to become Olympic champion. On top of that, I have not seen many classes benefit from being an Olympic class.
So the bottom line is: the ILCA management should make sure the laser is and will be what it was originally designed for, an affordable boat (Strict One Design) for everybody and not only for the happy few. We do not believe that the current ILCA management is going in that direction with the new ILCA class rules. There fore we propose a new democratic voting system where every ILCA sailor will have a vote and not only one vote per Laser district.
I hope this gives a better understanding what drives the European Laser sailors.
I am a European Master. I don't quite share your concerns and I strongly disapprove of your methods. Please don't speak for me.I will try to formulate carefully the concerns of the European Master Sailors
How slow is "very" slow? The current plan (pandemics notwithstanding) is to have all the new builders up and running by late 2021. What if I want a new boat now?We believe in the introduction of new equipment to solve problems, but it should go very slow in order to make sure that older Lasers do not suddenly become obsolete.
That's exactly what ILCA is doing. What's the problem here?We are not against new builders (as that could mean lower prices), as long as ILCA is able to make sure they build in accordance with the strict One Design and not making the older boats suddenly obsolete
What do you mean with "new" class rules? The last change was to not require builders to be trademark owners anymore. What is your "belief" really based on?the ILCA management should make sure the laser is and will be what it was originally designed for, an affordable boat (Strict One Design) for everybody and not only for the happy few. We do not believe that the current ILCA management is going in that direction with the new ILCA class rules.
What is that supposed to mean? That's how it is, and has been for decades. One member, one vote.we propose a new democratic voting system where every ILCA sailor will have a vote and not only one vote per Laser district.
It doesn't. Your arguments are very weak and definitely don't warrant the existence of a fake class association. Which looks totally like a LaserPerformance-driven thing, but we can talk about that later...I hope this gives a better understanding what drives the European Laser sailors.
In answer to the above ILCA response, I am one of those ILCA sailors and I will try to formulate carefully the concerns of the European Master Sailors:
- We believe in the introduction of new equipment to solve problems, but it should go very slow in order to make sure that older Lasers do not suddenly become obsolete. Sailors will stop sailing the laser when their boat suddenly becomes much slower than new boats. This will have a big impact on the number of competitors of the club races and national championships in the different countries and at the end also for the European and World championships.
- The cost price of the boat and equipment should be a fare price. This price is based on the margin of the builders and de ILCA royalties.
- We are not against new builders (as that could mean lower prices), as long as ILCA is able to make sure they build in accordance with the strict One Design and not making the older boats suddenly obsolete (see point 1).
- The ILCA royalties is something ILCA can decide. The question her is, does ILCA really need to get so much money out of the boat and equipment sales and the ILCA events?
- We are very much in favour of the Olympics, but if this is the reason that the older boats become obsolete, and the amateur laser sailors stop sailing, then we should forget about it. Afterall the Olympic sailors are a very small group and do not necessarily need to compete in a Laser in order to become Olympic champion. On top of that, I have not seen many classes benefit from being an Olympic class.
So the bottom line is: the ILCA management should make sure the laser is and will be what it was originally designed for, an affordable boat (Strict One Design) for everybody and not only for the happy few. We do not believe that the current ILCA management is going in that direction with the new ILCA class rules. There fore we propose a new democratic voting system where every ILCA sailor will have a vote and not only one vote per Laser district.
I hope this gives a better understanding what drives the European Laser sailors.
Alternatively you may be able to sail in TheLaserClass Masters World Championships and if the ILCA boats are to the same one design they might be allowed to participate too. This could be an open event, as they always used to be, leading to more inclusive participation.Ask yourselves, will splitting from the ILCA make it better or worse, if you want to compete at a Masters World Championships, you will still need to join the ILCA
I think your issue is with the UKLA rather than the ILCA.Alternatively you may be able to sail in TheLaserClass Masters World Championships and if the ILCA boats are to the same one design they might be allowed to participate too. This could be an open event, as they always used to be, leading to more inclusive participation.
Has to be better than the UKLA system of only allowing the chosen few who sailed in selection regattas to attend Masters Events which has destroyed UK Masters International participation and was not helped when ILCA refused to intervene and introduce a World Wide qualification system similar to the excellent one in the USA.
It is many little instances similar this which have resulted in falling membership in the UK, club sailors see no value in spending $50 on membership, the membership becomes dominated by the elite who have to be members to compete and who then take the association along their preferred path (Janis Groupthink).
As Alan D said it is similar to Brexit where MSM and the Establishment were advocating Remain but a recent election involving all voters supported the Leave party.
Imagine if we had a vote on the way forward where the ILCA position had to be endorsed by everyone who owned a Laser, it might be a very different outcome!
Alternatively you may be able to sail in TheLaserClass Masters World Championships and if the ILCA boats are to the same one design they might be allowed to participate too. This could be an open event, as they always used to be, leading to more inclusive participation.
No ILCA. ILCA introduced the requirement for association ranking but gave no guidance on how it should be achieved and National Associations were left to invent their own rules. ILCA should have issued a framework with core objectives.I think your issue is with the UKLA rather than the ILCA.
You are very lucky. Here in the UK I bought LP Radial sails last season for £300 in the end of year sale. Same local supplier and this year the list price is £500 discounted to £450. A 50% increase.As an American Laser sailor I am thrilled that LP got the boot and we hopefully we have access to parts and boats once some ILCA mfrs get approved. ILCA sails are already cheaper.
There is no way LP and TLC will let ILCAs sail with LP Lasers. Their whole idea is to be the monopoly mfr of TLC Lasers. They said they will consider licensing other builders, but ILCA mfrs are not going to want to support TLC, and visa versa.
As an American Laser sailor I am thrilled that LP got the boot and we hopefully we have access to parts and boats once some ILCA mfrs get approved. ILCA sails are already cheaper.
No ILCA. ILCA introduced the requirement for association ranking but gave no guidance on how it should be achieved and National Associations were left to invent their own rules. ILCA should have issued a framework with core objectives.
It is ILCA which is driving the class towards elitism at the expense of the club sailor in it's quest for Olympic Status. The UKLA is only following.
It is ILCA who appear to have failed to ensure all boats are strict one design by allowing one manufacturer to make subtle changes to hull construction which only came to light when another constructor dissected a hull.
You are very lucky. Here in the UK I bought LP Radial sails last season for £300 in the end of year sale. Same local supplier and this year the list price is £500 discounted to £450. A 50% increase.
I made the point in another thread that the Laser Carbon spars are more expensive than the Aero spars despite the fact they have no track and no machined joint. Now the List price of a Laser sail is between £50 and £100 (difference depends on which rigs you need) more expensive than an Aero sail.
ILCA might have secured the 2024 Olympics but by 2028 it might be very different if the Aero continues to be lower cost, and, offer the advantages of a modern rig. Remember the Aero was the recommended choice of the technical panel for 2024.
In the long term ILCA might just have engineered everything they were trying to avoid and killed the Laser at both Olympic and club level at the same time.
It almost seems as if ILCA is trying to squeeze a low cost volume supplier out of the market by some of its actions, although, I accept LPE is not faultless in this matter.
No. ILCA did - as I've understood it - the exact opposite: solved the problem by having all builders add the two small pieces of fibreglass cloth that this was all about. (The fact that LP still indirectly through "TLC" uses this as a weapon against ILCA despite, allegedly, suggesting the solution themselves in the first place and being quiet about it for years, tells something of the LP mindset.)It is ILCA who appear to have failed to ensure all boats are strict one design by allowing one manufacturer to make subtle changes to hull construction which only came to light when another constructor dissected a hull.
UKLA have announced they will not allow boats without plaques to compete and that current LPE boats do therefore not comply. I wonder if LPE will continue to sponsor the UK National Events.There is no way LP and TLC will let ILCAs sail with LP Lasers. Their whole idea is to be the monopoly mfr of TLC Lasers. They said they will consider licensing other builders, but ILCA mfrs are not going to want to support TLC, and visa versa.
I wonder how long LP and Maclaren will stay as official suppliers for WS. Still listed as such. (Scroll all the way down.)I wonder if LPE will continue to sponsor the UK National Events.
I think that as World Sailing has furloughed most of its staff for the time being, keeping its website up to date in these areas will be a long way down its list. And it may also depend on whether there are still any outstanding contracts of supply for LPE to supply boats for WS events.I wonder how long LP and Maclaren will stay as official suppliers for WS. Still listed as such.
Yes, but they're a pretty small builder (fewer than 100 boats in a "normal" year), and have probably been quite busy with building boats not only for the Olympics but other major regattas in Japan which were scheduled for this year. Although (and maybe even because of) this has all changed for well-known reasons, they're likely not thinking about exporting anything for a while. Therefore it's not hugely inaccurate to list PSA as the de facto only builder now. The same goes for not mentioning ancient buttonless but legal sails... I mean, no one really races with 30-year-old rags, right?aren't Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) still accredited manufacturers?