470 Questions

Discussion in '470 Discussion' started by Ryan@470, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Here are some questions I have regarding my new boat. Feel free to answer or add your own.


    What are the different types of spinnaker bags? What are the mounting standards? Are there specific types for different sailing techniques? Never used one before, any input would be great.

    Why is 470 gear hard to find/expensive compared to other classes?

    Has anyone reinforced a 470 hull by laying glass from the inside? My boat has two “doors” (not to be mistaken for an inspection port) that can be opened to let the hull dry/make maintenance easier.

    Is it possible to role a 470 jib on a %110 furler or do I need a specific type of sail? (I probably won’t bother, just curious).

    Why don’t you see the 470 class out on the lake? I thought it was a pretty popular class, should have seen at least one at home...

    Why are 470 races hard to find? I would have to drive a bit to nearest... aren’t they an Olympic class?...

    What’s the easiest way to learn how to effectively trapeze?

    Can a crew of two ~230lbs (~100kg) be able to right a turtled 470? Crew of one?

    Can you sail solo, single trapeze, on a 470? While flying a spinnaker?

    When a 470 becomes suddenly over powered, and the skipper fails to luff the sail, would the crew on the line be brought over the hull and onto the mast/sail? Is there a safety release mechanism for this scenario? ... I can see how this can become very dangerous very quick.

    Why do you sail a 470?

    Thanks for any input!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The bags differ only really whether they have one or two closing flaps at the top, and I believe they all have two these days. Affects the mounting a little but not much.
    Standard mounting would be direct screwing or through-bolting to the bulkhead at the front top corners, and holding the back top corners and the closing flap(s) up with elastic tied to the mast gate and fittings on the side deck. Those fittings may be ones used for other functions, such as trapeze elastic leads, or the chainplates.
    These are all the same question, really. Or at least there is one answer.

    Olympic status guarantees popularity on a global scale, but it doesn't necessarily lead to popularity on a local or national level. It does very easily lead to elitism, though, which directly leads to activity dropping off at the sub-international level. It's a slow process which is driven by the ease of running a class only for the top sailors. The 470 was chosen for the Olympics as a "people's boat", but what it's come to during the last 20+ years is that the class consists of Olympic hopefuls only. There are at best only a handful of those teams per country, and therefore very few even national-level regattas. I don't believe that the International 470 Association has ever made the conscious decision, but the class has effectively outsourced its grassroots to the 420 class, worldwide. You see now why there is so much class-specific equipment available for the other class but not the other?
    I have! I laminated some extra stringers on my boat when they were allowed at the time. It's not hard to do through the big hatches, but I wouldn't do anything like that to an old boat unless there is something actually broken and in need of repair.
    A furler has always been illegal in the 470, and it would be pretty useless as well. It's not used even in comparable classes which allow it. Adding one would probably throw the tuning off as well. And the jib has battens. Etc.
    Get a coach who knows the stuff. Find people in your area who are familiar with trapezeing (most likelly in the 420) and who can watch you sailing and tell you how not to do it. Anyone (such as myself) can give you the basics from a distance, but you need someone next to you to spot your mistakes, which you will be making a lot in the beginning.
    Then you can of course watch stuff like World Sailing TV videos on Youtube, but you have to keep in mind that even top crews do make systematical mistakes. (The hardest thing about learning from successful sailors is, are they successful because they do something in a certain way - or despite it?)
    Yes. But at or below 60 kg you'll have a tough time.
    This is one of the things that you can do, but isn't necessarily smart or even fun except as an occasional stunt. Don't try it while you're still learning the basics, with the spinnaker up, or in anything but light to medium winds.
    The mainsheet is the first safety valve, the jib sheet the next if it's really blowing. But what you described happens usually slowly enough in a 470 (no "slingshotting" as in cats or skiffs) that the crew has time to unhook... and step directly onto the centreboard.
    Once upon a time, I got into the 470 because it was the natural next step as a sailor, I had a good helmsman who was in the same situation, the class was active in this country on many levels, and there was a fairly good boat for sale at our club.

    I might still be/get again involved in the class if 1 ) I weighed at least 15 kg less and 2) there were others in my area who wanted to race the boat on a non-top international level. I don't expect either happening anytime soon... Which is kind of sad, because of all boats I've actively raced, the 470 has been the most satisfying overall. It requires an equal focus on boathandling/tactics/tuning, and while it's a little boring in light winds, it's the best in a breeze: it's fast, but reasonably easy to control.

    It's a great boat to learn in. I hope you'll have as much fun with it as I once did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  3. Bill Hanson

    Bill Hanson New Member Staff Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    There are active 470's that race in the Midwest on a non Olympic level.
    Regatta's are held at Des Plaines Il, Milwaukee, Wi and Carlyle, Il.
    They race weekly as a fleet in Des Plaines, Il (5 -10 active boats)
    Multiple other boats around the Midwest that race in Portsmouth handicap fleets.
    I suspect that that there are other 470's around the East coast that may also race in handicap fleets.
    Look at the smaller clubs that are on inland lakes, not the big name yacht clubs
    There are also 8? newer 470's located in Oyster Bay, NY that are related to the Oakcliff Sailing program.
    It might be worth your time to go see those boats and take pictures to see how newer boats are rigged.
     
  4. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Lila, earlier you mentioned bag mounting. I found an image of another 70s Morin 470 that has 6 hooks around the doors. Are these mounting for the bags, or used for something else?
     

    Attached Files:

  5. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I would say both. The visible vertically-mounted hooks look like they are for the bags, and there's very likely another hook on each side for that, just out of sight under the mast gate.

    The horizontal hooks are probably for securing the spinnaker halyard and the sheets. Now the sheets don't really need to be secured like that, and the halyard hooks are too far inboard (the idea was apparently that the halyard is secured right where it comes out of the outboard edge of the bag). Over the years, people have rigged all kinds of ingenious automatically-releasing devices for this function, involving elastic, battens, and even toothbrushes :D but that's something you don't need to worry about at this point.

    In that picture, you can also see the hooks on the side tanks to which the aft outboard corner of the bag is attached (this can be tied to the trapeze elastic lead as well). There seem to be some sort of holes on the mast gate for the remaining corner.

    I've always considered the bags to be permanent fittings, so I think the hooks are an unnecessary complication. However, it's been about ten years since I last had something to do with fitting out these things, so I don't know what the current standard might be. In any case, there is nothing builder-specific about this - what works on a new Mackay works on an old Morin.
     
  6. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    This may be repetitive, but could you point me in the right direction for a trap kit? The laser 2 you mentioned earlier includes one side, and they have only one in stock. I’ve tried looking for 420, laser 2, 470, And a few other dinghys with no luck. (Most were sold in Europe somewhere) ~ and I now know catamaran systems won’t work. Got any suggestions?

    Thanks (again).
     
  7. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Yes - do it like other 470 owners do, that is, buy the parts individually. If you're getting a harness from Fogh Marine, you might as well include these in the delivery:

    Trapeze Handle Standard Black Nylon
    D Shackle Slot Hd 4mm W 10 L 15 BL 1100 lb
    Clamcleat Racing Junior w Roller MK1
    Trapeze Hoist Nova R-4094
    (2 of each of the above)
    Marlow Excel Pro 4mm Rope (4 metres)
    Shock Cord 3/16 Rope (At least 2 m, more depending on how it's run in the cockpit. You will need this elsewhere in the boat, too.)

    Not included are hull fittings that you possibly need for the take-up elastic, if the originals aren't in place anymore.
     
  8. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    New question:

    This probably isn’t important, but out of curiosity, how do you go about weighing a hull without damaging it or straining it in a absurd position?

    Basically I want to figure out how much weight was added due to fiberglass repair (?) by previous owners of my 470. Based on other threads in this forum, an old 470 should be very flimsy and “soft” all over. Mines not, the boat doesn’t flex to my weight wherever I stand sit or push. The inside of the boat is bone dry, the foam is concealed in clear plastic covering. I’m guessing 1. this boat was over built 2. this boat has reinforced tanks since built (or) 3. the boat was never used much.
     
  9. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    3. is the correct answer, I think.

    470s (like other stayed boats) lose their initial overall stiffness mainly by tensioning the rig and releasing that tension, time after time - in other words, by going sailing a lot. Side tank stiffness is largely a function of how many times it's been sat on, so that's also directly sailing-related. The bottom may go soft from long travels on a badly-supporting trailer, and freeze-thaw cycles may cause damage as well. If a 43-year-old boat doesn't flex as much as it "ought" to, it's most likely because it has been (ab)used relatively little over those years. Former owners having added material is much less plausible.

    The 470 has two minimum weights: 86 kg for the bare hull (no fittings at all, so that's not relevant here), and 120 kg all-up, including everything but the sails. You could simply balance the rigged boat on its gunwale on a normal bathroom scale, but I think it's kind of pointless to weigh it in the first place. It's probably not underweight, and if it's significantly overweight, there's little you can do to it. If I were you, I'd be happy to have a stiff-feeling hull, and concentrate on other areas, such as sheeting and control systems, foils, etc.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I think you’re right, which is kinda weird because the boat was registered as a motor boat for several years, and received at least another gel coat, and someone had it long enough to decide to change the rigging setup.

    New question: The tiller seems to be the only thing that keeps the rudder on the boat. The rudder sits on two gudgeons (which don’t ‘lock’) and the tiller slides into the box at the back of the transom constrained by two lines that raise and lower the rudder. The tiller is then captured under the transom bridge. I was concerned that if the tiller becomes loose, and detaches from the rudder, the rudder would then bounce off the gudgeons into the water, and sink like a rock :confused:. I found a solution to this, that involves using a spring steel tongue that covers the top of the gudgeon, and can be released to remove the rudder (picture). Is this legal? Has anyone ever lost a rudder before?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Not only is it legal, it's mandatory.

    You might want to look up these things yourself: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/4702017CR170217-[22006].pdf

    (I'd also recommend attaching the tiller permanently to the rudder head.)
     
  12. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Oddly enough I was gifted the entire trapeze system for Christmas :).


    1). (Harness) The quick release, when pulled, actually let’s go of the hook entirely. (So in case of emergency, you will lose the hook definitely.) I tied a piece of shock chord around the hook, and the other end around the spreader, figureing if I ever had to pull the release, the hook would detach from the harness and wire entirely exempt the shock chord (then come back at the speed of light :confused:). Are there any other solutions to this that you know of?

    2). I need to add hardware (what is this called?) to the hull to take up the slack from the shock chord retaining the wire in place. Do I need a backing board? Do they rivet into the hull? I included a picture of a 420 with the shock chord setup I had in mind. Is there an easier way? (Also, I may tie up the shock chord to the bottom of the for stay instead).

    3). Crimping wire. I plan on cutting and crimping the wire thru and around the camcleat mounting hole (I included a picture of this as well), then slide a trapeze handle on top of that. Would regular ‘hardware store’ aluminum ferrule crimps (3rd picture) work/be strong enough? I’m also debating whether or not if I need a thimble loop as well (4th picture). How long should the wire be?

    Thanks again!
     

    Attached Files:

  13. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Nice :D
    Buy a couple of spare hooks and always keep one on the boat or in a pocket when you're on the water. The hook is supposed to detach completely in an emergency, so tying it anywhere defeats the purpose really. Losing the hook (or any equipment for that matter) is no fun, but it's an acceptable loss in a potentially life-threatening situation.
    I just call it the trapeze elastic... the class rules use "trapeze return system".
    Like the spinnaker bags, elastic lines load the fittings very lightly, so there's no point in using backing plates unless the laminate is very thin and flexible.
    Never rivet anything into fibreglass. Ever.
    The picture of the 420 shows several don'ts:
    • the lead for the elastic on the side tank shouldn't be that close to the chainplate
    • the elastic shouldn't be tied to the lowest part of the ring
    • the height adjustment system is "upside down".
    You don't see exactly how the elastic is run, but it probably simply connects to the other side in front of the mast. On a 470 you could lead it behind the bags, in front of the mast, or through a block at the mast step, but that's not quite long enough to give you enough stretch after a while when the elastic isn't "fresh" anymore. So for example, you see people running their cord(s) along the side tanks to the back of the boat. Taking it to the bow would probably be ok (and very Laser 2-ish) but I've never seen anyone do that on a 470. What I'd recommend is leading it to the mast step and then around the whole centreboard case and back to the other side. If you want to see pictures, I can post some later.
    Don't connect the wire and the cleat permanently like that; use a shackle in between them. And slide the handle on the wire before doing the end :D
    Use copper crimps instead of aluminium (no corrosion).
    Use a thimble.
    Trapeze wire length, or functionally the handle height, is a matter of style/taste and the size of the crew. I am 178 cm tall and on the 470 I like the t-shaped handle to be just a little bit closer to the gooseneck than the spinnaker pole ring when you pull the wire tight along the mast.
     
  14. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
  15. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Cool, thanks
     
  16. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I need to replace most of the lines within the hull (such as the daggerboard sheet, and jib sheet) since they have dry rotted. Is there a specific brand, or type/gauge of rope that is recamended? (For a not-to-competitive boat)
     
  17. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Short answer: brand doesn't matter (they all make more or less similar products), type and gauge vary a lot depending on the specific application.

    For the complete answer, we'd need to go through every sheeting and control system one by one (and probably redesign a few of them). But generally speaking, you want thin low-stretch rope for the primary parts of the systems, and something thicker, softer and cheaper for the cleats and your hands. 3 mm single-braid Dyneema usually works for the former, and 5 mm double-braid polyester rope for the latter purpose. For the systems that you mentioned, a 5 or 6 mm polyester rope would be ok for the centreboard line, and a 6 or 7 for the jibsheet.
     
  18. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Harken International 470 Spinnaker Bags (Set)


    I believe that I touched on this earlier, but, I plan on getting spinnaker bags from Vela (since I can get free shipping in the states). I talked earlier about having to add my own mounting (probably with bolts with oversized washers at the end). What does “mounting” look like? Should the bags be removed daily?
     
  19. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I hope this shows the general idea clearly enough:

    [​IMG]

    You can see that the screws at the forward corners have big washers on the outside as well.
    On this boat the inner forward corner seems to be attached to the mast gate, but on the Harken bags this screw is intended to go through the bulkhead. Not a big difference.
    Also on this boat, the inner aft corner is also screwed to the mast gate, but elastic is smarter (= more durable) here. The Harkens look like they're built for the latter.
    The remaining corner and the flaps also attach by elastic.
    No, they're permanent equipment.
     
  20. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    81309E7A-B4EA-453B-992C-0BC81F2A3842.jpeg 73F06548-FAAE-45D4-83BB-F5D08490DFE8.jpeg Am I missing something?


    Over the past few weeks I’ve been cleaning my boat and rigging, today I pulled out the centreboard. It’s in basically good shape, and I was contemplating refinishing it (with stain, paint or oil?).

    I noticed lots of radial scratches revolving around the centreboards axle. Is there alsupposed to be a large washer, or low-friction guide? I’ll probably end up making one. If there isn’t anything here on current 470s, what protects the boards coat?
     

Share This Page