Does rule 17.2 apply to Lasers?

Indrek Aavisto

Indrek Aavisto

New Member
Here is one for the rules mavens.

Two Lasers are sailing on the downwind leg on starboard tack. The lead boat is about one and a half boat lengths clear ahead of the trailing boat. The trailing boat has slightly better speed and bears off to pass to leeward of the leading boat. The lead boat bears off to block the overtaking boat.

The overtaking boat cites rule 17.2, which prohibits the lead boat from sailing below its proper course. The lead boat counters that she can bear off as much as she wants because "everyone knows that a Laser is faster when sailing by the lee".

Who is right? Is there a point at which a Laser will not go faster when sailed by the lee? Is there a point when the extra speed is not enough to compensate for the extra distance sailed?

Cheers,

Indrek Aavisto
 
This is a tricky area - the group I sail with had a protest with a very similar scenario this spring. In our scenario we had enough facts to determine that until the boats were overlapped the boat clear ahead was not sailing below her proper course (the facts brought out that he did go from ddw to sailing by the lee, but there were witnesses that agreed that during that leg, all of them sailed by the lee at various times, so we determined it was still within his proper course.)

Once the two of them were overlapped however, it's the boat to leeward that determines proper course and the windward boat needs to keep clear. In our case the windward boat failed to do this as he continued to sail by the lee while the leeward boat changed and starting sailing ddw

In order to really decide the example you give above, more facts would need to be given
 
Yep, you need to be overlapped for the leeward boat to have stronger rights. The proper course for a laser sailing dw can be all over the place.
 
Why would you want to stay to leeward of an overtaking boat on a run. If he is overtaking on your rear port quarter, and you go from DDW to by the lee, doesn't that mean that he now controls you? The best thing to do is either go by the lee before he gets close enough to get rights, or gybing and sailing in clear winds. The last thing you want is anyone to windward of you.
 
LASERNUT said:
The last thing you want is anyone to windward of you.
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Except right before reaching lee mark to get inner position. And thats all about dw course how to win or defense lee mark inner position. On the run it is dificult to pass a lot of boats, but important to get into a proper tactical position when reaching lee mark. So sailors intent anything to defense and this rule may put some order here ...
 
If it is reach and not ddw then the first reach you should always (unless there is a gust coming) go low. The fleet will always go high on a reach which means that they are stuck one behind the other. If you go round the windward mark and go low (if you can!) at the start of the reach, then you create your own lane and can go where you like. You also sail less distance (as everyone tends to go so high) and if the wind dies you can keep your speed up when everyone is almost on a run at the mark.
The only time it doesn't work is if you lose your nerve and join the fleet half way down or you only get 3-4 boat lengths to leeward of the fleet.

Be brave and try it.
 
LASERNUT said:
If it is reach and not ddw then the first reach you should always (unless there is a gust coming) go low. The fleet will always go high on a reach which means that they are stuck one behind the other. If you go round the windward mark and go low (if you can!) at the start of the reach, then you create your own lane and can go where you like. You also sail less distance (as everyone tends to go so high) and if the wind dies you can keep your speed up when everyone is almost on a run at the mark.
The only time it doesn't work is if you lose your nerve and join the fleet half way down or you only get 3-4 boat lengths to leeward of the fleet.

Be brave and try it.
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There are a lot of variables that come into play, so to say
"you should always (unless there is a gust coming) go low"
is not correct.

For example - heavier guys in marginal planing conditions need to keep their air clear if they are going to stand any chance of planing. This is usually best done going a little high so that everyone that might pass, will pass to leeward and not blanket you.

If you are well ahead or behind a large clump of boats, sail as though there were no boats between you and the mark, ie to get there as quickly as possible. Going low in this case is not the answer either..

And there are more.. You really need to evaluate the current situation and play out the hand that you have been dealt.
 
49208 said:
There are a lot of variables that come into play, so to say
"you should always (unless there is a gust coming) go low"
is not correct.

For example - heavier guys in marginal planing conditions need to keep their air clear if they are going to stand any chance of planing. This is usually best done going a little high so that everyone that might pass, will pass to leeward and not blanket you.

If you are well ahead or behind a large clump of boats, sail as though there were no boats between you and the mark, ie to get there as quickly as possible. Going low in this case is not the answer either..

And there are more.. You really need to evaluate the current situation and play out the hand that you have been dealt.
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This is why I end up passing a lot of boats on the reach. Everyone in the fleet is going as fast as the slowest boat in the line.
 
Indrek Aavisto said:
Here is one for the rules mavens.

Two Lasers are sailing on the downwind leg on starboard tack. The lead boat is about one and a half boat lengths clear ahead of the trailing boat. The trailing boat has slightly better speed and bears off to pass to leeward of the leading boat. The lead boat bears off to block the overtaking boat.

The overtaking boat cites rule 17.2, which prohibits the lead boat from sailing below its proper course. The lead boat counters that she can bear off as much as she wants because "everyone knows that a Laser is faster when sailing by the lee".

Who is right? Is there a point at which a Laser will not go faster when sailed by the lee? Is there a point when the extra speed is not enough to compensate for the extra distance sailed?
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You don't seem to be asking a rules question, really.

17.2 is tricky because what is required is to figure out what the windward boat would have done absent the presence of the leeward boat.

In mixed fleet situations it often comes to play as some boats sail hotter angles downwind than others. Not so in the laser fleet.

L seems to be saying that W steered down (or "heated up by the lee") for the sole purpose of blocking L. If true, this would be a 17.2 violation.

W seems to be saying that he was simply "sailing the angles" and sailing a little further by the lee to increase boatspeed by increasing apparent wind. If true, then no 17.2 violation occured.

The results of the protest will rest on who is able to prove their case most conclusively to a protest committee.
 
bjmoose said:
L seems to be saying that W steered down (or "heated up by the lee") for the sole purpose of blocking L. If true, this would be a 17.2 violation.

W seems to be saying that he was simply "sailing the angles" and sailing a little further by the lee to increase boatspeed by increasing apparent wind. If true, then no 17.2 violation occured.
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Here's Rule 17.2, so that we're all on the same page:

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

The situation you've described, as bjmoose suggests, is a clear violation of rule 17.2, inasmuch as the boat clear ahead has sailed below her proper course. I imagine that this scenario happened while approaching a leeward mark to be rounded on port. It often happens, during a run, that a boat on starboard tack would like to bear away to protect her rights at the mark-- that is, would like to bear away to get inside or stay inside another boat overtaking her. But rule 17.2 clearly indicates that you cannot bear away in order to protect that leeward position, and a violation of this rule should be upheld.

The boat clear ahead might argue that she was simply sailing her proper course, the course she would have been sailing in the absence of the boat clear astern, and only the skipper of the boat making that claim will know for sure if she has violated Rule 2 or not.

But I'd like to point out that the solution to this problem is to gybe. Once the boat clear ahead has gybed, she may sail as high as she likes, as long as she stays clear of the starboard tack boat.
 
if the boat is still on its "proper course" then fine. But if 20 degrees past the mark then it is not proper course. Rememeber you can take a boat past the mark as long as you tell them and as long as you go as well.
 
beaker said:
if the boat is still on its "proper course" then fine. But if 20 degrees past the mark then it is not proper course. Rememeber you can take a boat past the mark as long as you tell them and as long as you go as well.
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There wasn't a lot of specific info in the original post to make a claim that twenty degrees either side of dead down wind is not proper course - if there are surfing conditions or very light air or a wind shift, 20 degrees either side of dead down wind would fall well within a Laser's fastest course to reach the bottom mark.
 
Personally I would argue that the movement of the boat ahead was a reaction to the boat behind bearing away and was therefore not proper course. For the boat ahead to claim this is a breach of rule 2 (in my opinion).

As has been pointed out the solution is for the boat ahead to immeditaely gybe (which may be the best tactical solution as then once clear they can gybe back and be leeward/inside for the next mark).

Do also remember there is no rule about 'overtaking' boat but there are rules about overlaps and how they are established and broken, subtley different. The best thing to do if you are approaching a slowler boat from behind and you can get away with it is to pass to leeward as long as you are not going to get blanketed too badly and as long as you can get clear ahead for the next mark.

Just my 2p but it works for me, sailing by the lee is also very effective especially against assymetrics as you can hold them out from gybing until it suits you!
 
LASERNUT said:
This is why I end up passing a lot of boats on the reach. Everyone in the fleet is going as fast as the slowest boat in the line.
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I've always been a big fan of "taking the low road" on a reaching leg. The problem is if you have guys hot on your heels as you come around the mark they are going to drive you high to try for the pass. you really need to be able to get some initial separation from guys behind you otherwise they'll blow over the top of you and it will take the whole leg to recover from the initial blanketing. The best way to play the low road is to get low on the leg as fast as possible when rounding the mark. However, if the competition is right on you there are times where you just can't do it.

The low road is often a good "dig out" move if you are back in the pack. But I would not recommend it for a lead boat especially when you have to defend those on your stern.
 
49208 said:
There wasn't a lot of specific info in the original post to make a claim that twenty degrees either side of dead down wind is not proper course - if there are surfing conditions or very light air or a wind shift, 20 degrees either side of dead down wind would fall well within a Laser's fastest course to reach the bottom mark.
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I agree. There is NO WAY you can prove that 20 degrees high or low of a leeward mark is off the proper course bearing for a laser.

That is why 17.2 is sooo difficult to manage and prove in the protest room. You can protest someone for it, but they will "bend" their story using the old, "faster by the lee" thing our boats are so good at.

Yes this breaks rule 2, but it's reality.
 
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