bob-a-long
New Member
What should the maximum exetnsion be for a laser radial kicker, as i am replacing the rope in my control lines and want to know how long i need it for the 3:1 purchse of my kicker. I have the new kicker system.
kickers
- Thread starter bob-a-long
- Start date
drLaser
Member
I presume you are talking about the 3:1 primary purchase part of the 15:1 kicker, Alison.
Then, I'd say 6 feet for the line length you need, to be on the safe side.
Actually, the answer will depend on whether you have a HARKEN or HOLT or custom system. You called it a "kicker", so probably you are from GBR and have a HOLT. Right? But I can only speak for Harken here.
On my Harken vang, the length of the line between the becket of the top block and the block at the top of the cascade system is exactly... 123.5 cm (or 48.5 inches).
This setting implies that at full kicker setting (when it's honking), the lower assembly blocks and the cascade blocks will be about 2" (5 cm) apart from each other.
To determine how much line you need, you'll need to add to this length another 20 cm (or 8 inches) if you will splice the two ends, or another 40 cm (16 inches) if you will attach the line to the blocks using knots.
Don't use splicing! You will not be able to adjust the scope if you get it wrong, or if you don't like this setting. Mine was spliced, but I had no choice. I got my vang from Harken like that. (In fact, lucky me, Peter Harken himself spliced my primary line
)
The above numbers are actually for the Standard rig, but I have not noticed any problems when I used the same vang with the Radial rig (many times).
All the above numbers will be slightly different for the HOLT system for which lower assembly length, block locations and sizes are all different!
Anyone who has a HOLT kicker handy to measure?
The best method is to just measure it yourself using any old line, Alison! The keys are:
1) Not getting the knot or splice at top to suck into the top block at max out;
2) Not getting the cascade system blocks too close to each other at max in;
SG
Then, I'd say 6 feet for the line length you need, to be on the safe side.
Actually, the answer will depend on whether you have a HARKEN or HOLT or custom system. You called it a "kicker", so probably you are from GBR and have a HOLT. Right? But I can only speak for Harken here.
On my Harken vang, the length of the line between the becket of the top block and the block at the top of the cascade system is exactly... 123.5 cm (or 48.5 inches).
This setting implies that at full kicker setting (when it's honking), the lower assembly blocks and the cascade blocks will be about 2" (5 cm) apart from each other.
To determine how much line you need, you'll need to add to this length another 20 cm (or 8 inches) if you will splice the two ends, or another 40 cm (16 inches) if you will attach the line to the blocks using knots.
Don't use splicing! You will not be able to adjust the scope if you get it wrong, or if you don't like this setting. Mine was spliced, but I had no choice. I got my vang from Harken like that. (In fact, lucky me, Peter Harken himself spliced my primary line
)The above numbers are actually for the Standard rig, but I have not noticed any problems when I used the same vang with the Radial rig (many times).
All the above numbers will be slightly different for the HOLT system for which lower assembly length, block locations and sizes are all different!
Anyone who has a HOLT kicker handy to measure?
The best method is to just measure it yourself using any old line, Alison! The keys are:
1) Not getting the knot or splice at top to suck into the top block at max out;
2) Not getting the cascade system blocks too close to each other at max in;
SG
Philip
New Member
Shevy I have the Holt system and am also trying to work out the length of the 3:1 primary. I am trying to judge it from the amount of travel the whole “kicker” needs.
I was wondering whether you could tell me when the “kicker” is fully off how much more length would I need than the boom just hanging with no tension, are there conditions when the boom would need to rise higher than this? And when the “kicker” is fully on how much tighter than block-to-block on the main sheet would I ever need to go?
Phil
I was wondering whether you could tell me when the “kicker” is fully off how much more length would I need than the boom just hanging with no tension, are there conditions when the boom would need to rise higher than this? And when the “kicker” is fully on how much tighter than block-to-block on the main sheet would I ever need to go?
Phil
drLaser
Member
> when the “kicker” is fully off, how much more length would I need
> than the boom just hanging with no tension
No more than that. In fact, the opposite! I believe that setting (boom just hanging freely) will NOT give you a short enough primary line that will achieve my point #2. With such a long primary line, by the time you are double-blocked on the cascade part of the vang, your vang will still not be tight enough!
That is, at max slack, primary line should be short enough so that you actually need to pull/push the boom end down by about 6" in order to easily slip the key into the boom strap. (There is no problem with getting the knot or splice at top to suck into the top block while insering the key into the starp hole, but while sailing, at max out position, the knot or splice at top should not suck into the top block. And that's achieved by properly positioning a stopper knot - or a handle - on the cascade line at the exit from the vang camcleat.)
You will need to test this out on the HOLT system to determine the exact figures.
> And when the “kicker” is fully on how much tighter than block-to-block
> on the main sheet would I ever need to go?
Much tighter!
For the Radial, upwind in about 16 knots of wind, the "pros" suggest pulling on the vang control line HARD after block-to-blocking the boom. In 18 knots, even more vang tension is required. Beyond 18 knots, huge amounts of vang are needed. But you know the bendy Radial lower mast! It's not uncommon to bend the lower mast when there is that much load on the vang (which pulls the tang area aft while pushing the gooseneck area forward).
So that's your personal decision. Supervanging is fast, but can be a costly mistake on the Radial! Remember Vanguard Chairman Steve Clark's warning: "If you start seeing daylight between the top of the boom and the bottom of the sail, you ought to ease the vang a bit." (REF: "Reliability of Vang Tang, Vang Strap and New Deck Plates", Boat Handling + Maintenance Sections, drLaser.)
Shevy
> than the boom just hanging with no tension
No more than that. In fact, the opposite! I believe that setting (boom just hanging freely) will NOT give you a short enough primary line that will achieve my point #2. With such a long primary line, by the time you are double-blocked on the cascade part of the vang, your vang will still not be tight enough!
That is, at max slack, primary line should be short enough so that you actually need to pull/push the boom end down by about 6" in order to easily slip the key into the boom strap. (There is no problem with getting the knot or splice at top to suck into the top block while insering the key into the starp hole, but while sailing, at max out position, the knot or splice at top should not suck into the top block. And that's achieved by properly positioning a stopper knot - or a handle - on the cascade line at the exit from the vang camcleat.)
You will need to test this out on the HOLT system to determine the exact figures.
> And when the “kicker” is fully on how much tighter than block-to-block
> on the main sheet would I ever need to go?
Much tighter!
For the Radial, upwind in about 16 knots of wind, the "pros" suggest pulling on the vang control line HARD after block-to-blocking the boom. In 18 knots, even more vang tension is required. Beyond 18 knots, huge amounts of vang are needed. But you know the bendy Radial lower mast! It's not uncommon to bend the lower mast when there is that much load on the vang (which pulls the tang area aft while pushing the gooseneck area forward).
So that's your personal decision. Supervanging is fast, but can be a costly mistake on the Radial! Remember Vanguard Chairman Steve Clark's warning: "If you start seeing daylight between the top of the boom and the bottom of the sail, you ought to ease the vang a bit." (REF: "Reliability of Vang Tang, Vang Strap and New Deck Plates", Boat Handling + Maintenance Sections, drLaser.)
Shevy
Philip
New Member
Shevy thanks for the help. My "kicker" is much too loose. I wrongly thought that when running by the lee I would need to let the boom rise above the just hanging point to allow the top of the sail to twist round the mast.
This is obviously not the case?
I was frightened to tighten it as much as you suggest – which is obviously why I struggle so much in a strong winds. I will also need to get a smaller life jacket, one that doesn’t catch on the boom when I am tacking with the “kicker” tight.
Phil
This is obviously not the case?
I was frightened to tighten it as much as you suggest – which is obviously why I struggle so much in a strong winds. I will also need to get a smaller life jacket, one that doesn’t catch on the boom when I am tacking with the “kicker” tight.
Phil
drLaser
Member
> I wrongly thought that when running by the lee I would need to let
> the boom rise above the just hanging point
Phil! We would call that an "invitation to deathroll".
It's "#5" in my list of top 10 mistakes "beginners" make (and it may lead to #9).
See "Ideal Vang Tension Downwind" by Marc Jacobi.
And also see "4th Dimension: Downwind By The Lee" by Steve Cockerill.
Both are champions!
> I will also need to get a smaller life jacket
There are a buch of new brands that are great. The low-riding kayacking types. A review was available on the drLaser site FAQ.
In my avatar image, you can partially see what I have been using (in anything but light air). It's a "Lotus Lowrider". Here's the full image:
http://www.drLaser.org//FAQ/images/PFDs/lowrider.jpg
There is a 2002 article on the PDF options in the FAQ.
Cheers,
Shevy
> the boom rise above the just hanging point
Phil! We would call that an "invitation to deathroll".
It's "#5" in my list of top 10 mistakes "beginners" make (and it may lead to #9).
See "Ideal Vang Tension Downwind" by Marc Jacobi.
And also see "4th Dimension: Downwind By The Lee" by Steve Cockerill.
Both are champions!
> I will also need to get a smaller life jacket
There are a buch of new brands that are great. The low-riding kayacking types. A review was available on the drLaser site FAQ.
In my avatar image, you can partially see what I have been using (in anything but light air). It's a "Lotus Lowrider". Here's the full image:
http://www.drLaser.org//FAQ/images/PFDs/lowrider.jpg
There is a 2002 article on the PDF options in the FAQ.
Cheers,
Shevy
Philip
New Member
Thanks for the tips.
Phil
Phil
drLaser
Member
A pleasure, Philip!
Let us hear when you have a primary line length for the HOLT kicker.
SG
Let us hear when you have a primary line length for the HOLT kicker.
SG